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Talk:Tobi
PLEASE DO NOT MAKE DUPLICATE TOPICS, STICK TO THE ONES ALREADY THERE, DUPLICATE TOPICS WILL BE REMOVED, RESPONSES TO SPECULATION WILL BE REMOVED WITH THE SPECULATION, READ TOPICS BEFORE ASKING SOMETHING THAT'S ALREADY ANSWERED, DO NOT INSERT SPECULATION INTO THE DISCUSSIONS Tobi knowing the Jinchuriki's Powers Seeing as Tobi seems to have complete control of the revived Jinchuriki (without Kabuto's help) can we say that he seems to also know about their abilities as well in his trivia? I'm asking cause it was shown in the latest chapter that he also uses the black rods to control them and as such should be able to make them use any ability he wants them to right? Joshbl56 21:32, November 30, 2011 (UTC) looking whats behind The mask I was just wondering,why didnt any hyuga clan or uchiha clan member try to see whats behind that mask with their dojutsu.so that means they were not able to. so was it because tobi put some kind of barrier jutsu on the mask??? --Charmanking2198 (talk) 20:21, December 1, 2011 (UTC) Simple answer ... the mask is magic! --Elveonora (talk) 20:32, December 1, 2011 (UTC) Sharingan can't see through materials. Byakugan seams only to be able to see the looks of a person at close ranges. Jacce | Talk | 20:40, December 1, 2011 (UTC) OH, OK thx.-- (talk) 19:25, December 2, 2011 (UTC) Article Name Change So, I know that it's obvious by now that Madara Uchiha and the man called "Tobi" are two separate entities despite their origin. However, I question the name of the article and character being called "Tobi" as this name was only used to describe his childish persona and abandoned this title (that he never once labeled himself in the first place until chapter 564 and only did so mockingly because he didn't care about his name) after he revealed his "true identity" to everyone as "Madara." In addition, Nagato - who likely knows of both Madara and "Tobi" due to Madara's prediction that he was revived by Nagato with Rinne Tensei - has called this man by the name of Madara on several occasions. On the contrary, Zetsu still calls this man as Tobi, but for all that has been revealed, we don't know if Zetsu is even aware of this mysterious antagonists' true identity, and I believe the fact that Madara - who has the greatest chance of knowing this masked figure's origin due to their collaboration and who this person has been labeling himself after - himself has mentioned Nagato credits him more than Zetsu, whom he has yet to acknowledge. Thus, I propose that the article name be changed to something along the lines of "Masked Madara" or perhaps even "Other Madara" until further information about this controversial character is unveiled. The lack of evidence for Zetsu knowing the truth discredits him and is essentially based on speculation. Madara is the only person in the Naruto universe that can be trusted regarding information on this character, and Nagato establishes a much greater connection with him than Zetsu currently does. --Axel Carnage (talk) 08:58, December 4, 2011 (UTC) :It's easier to juts call this one by his old name "Tobi"--'TheUltimate3' ~Keeper of Lore~ 12:30, December 4, 2011 (UTC) ::It could also very well be that Nagato is in the dark about everything and Zetsu knows full-well who Tobi is, and has never called him "Madara" for other reasons. Also, what TheUltimate3 said since I personally cannot take the headache of another change like that for now.--Cerez365™ 13:01, December 4, 2011 (UTC) While I understand the simplicity of referring to him as Tobi, every character except for Zetsu has referred to this man as Madara. Even after it was discovered that the original Madara was resurrected via Edo Tensei, the Kages themselves still continued to refer to him as "Madara." To label this man as such because of Zetsu, a character who is just as mysterious as this person himself, seems illogical and unreasonable. Regardless of his true identity, this antagonist has been revered as Madara by all of the protagonists, as well as his fellow minions, with the exception of Zetsu and those who died before he revealed his identity. Two of the people that originally titled him as "Tobi", Nagato and Kisame, dropped the name altogether. One other controversy I'd like to point out is the video games. How is it going to be distinguished on the articles between which masked figure is playable? For example, it's very likely that "Tobi" will be returning in Ultimate Ninja Storm Generations, as well as the new man that dropped this immature persona and is referred to as "Madara." However, if you cannot label him as such, what are you going to call him? Two different personalities basically means two different characters, especially in video games, so why is he still referred to as his past personality? If it is a matter of going back and editing every piece of information that involves this character, I will be more than happy to assist, but the title he currently possesses seems inaccurate if he is widely regarded as "Madara" even after this major plot twist. --Axel Carnage (talk) 22:06, December 4, 2011 (UTC) * There's already a Madara, I don't think we're going to change and article name from a name "Tobi" to something like "Other Madara" * I really don't see how it is illogical or unreasonable to call him such he himself told them to call him whatever they wanted. * I also don't understand why you think that his "childish" persona is Tobi alone. Why are you separating his personalities into two different people? * We'll call him 'Tobi'. * Two different personalities basically means he's Schizophrenic not two entirely different persons.--Cerez365™ 22:13, December 4, 2011 (UTC) :* Which is why I proposed you put the term "Masked" in front of his name until he stops donning one altogether. Or at least some other indication that distinguishes between the two Madaras. :* If you were going off of his own word, you'd be calling him simply as "Madara" because he has labeled himself as such numerous times, many more than "Tobi." At this point, it would be more accurate to title him as "No One" than "Tobi" given the lack of characters that refer to him in this manner. :* He referred to "Tobi" as his "old name" and thus is not currently what he would go by. This Wikia even had "Tobi" described as his goofy personality alone before this plot twist, but now because of laziness, he has been completely labeled as such? :* A "person" can be referred to as a personality alone, not just a single entity. "Tobi" and this "Madara" are two different characters by technical standards.--Axel Carnage (talk) 22:39, December 4, 2011 (UTC) @Cerez, schizophrenia and dissociative identity disorder are 2 different things. --Elveonora (talk) 22:41, December 4, 2011 (UTC) Yes but if we put masked there, it will sound like he wasn't named. The databook has an entry for him as Tobi (and Madara I think). I think people who follow the Naruto series should know enough to distinguish the two. There's also the disambiguation page when you search for "Madara Uchiha". There's already a "Madara" so for the sake of people not getting confused until their relation to one another is fully disclosed, he's being referred to as his "former/initial" name. He was described as such because that's how the information was presented to us at first when he was believed to have been the- for want of a better word-'original' Madara acting under the guise of Tobi within Akatsuki. I think that as it stands now, it's much easier for people to distinguish the two without having to call him "Other Madara" or something like that.--Cerez365™ 22:48, December 4, 2011 (UTC) Again, I completely understand how easy it is to label him as Tobi, but fans of the series that aren't quite up to date in the manga will still recognize him as the only Madara. I can also somewhat understand why adding a term like "masked" would sound like he wasn't named, but as long as "Masked Madara" is included wherever his name is mentioned, it should suffice. If you disregard the simplicity of the manner, it's blatant that he should be called "Madara" in some way, shape, or form due to it being the name he has gained recognition from (and still is) and what he labels his own self. I just don't understand why call him by a name that he doesn't use himself and that no one else in the current timeline save for Zetsu uses. Besides which, "Tobi" isn't even his real name; we know that for certain. Furthermore, regardless if he originally was someone else, he is now Madara. His mind, arguably his physical traits, his fashion, and his chakra (in that he was able to summon the Kyubi without utilizing a Mangekyo Sharingan). If he is mentally Madara, physically Madara, and contains a portion of Madara's power, is he not Madara? What defines a character in this series according to you? What are the chances of this man being a complete poser and actually a completely different person? The databook, as you mentioned, lists that Tobi is Madara and Madara is Tobi and as previously debated, there are no blatant false statements in the databooks, just missing pieces of information. Eventually, you're going to be naming this being along the lines of "Clone Madara" either way. --Axel Carnage (talk) 18:52, December 5, 2011 (UTC) :I will agree with calling him "Masked Madara" in other spots for people who haven't read all the chapters but not naming him Madara. He also said that it didn't matter what anyone called him (Look in his quotes) and Tobi is the only name we have for him since Kabuto has also called him a "fake". I don't know where you're getting that he is now Madara, he only used that name because it is infamous. As for physical traits, we've only seen the side of his face, which is wrinkled, and the only thing that's the same is that they both have black hair and the sharingan, which all Uchiha's have. He could simply being wearing the same thing Madara does to try to stay with calling himself Madara. Also, things do change after the databook (like Wood Release). (I tried answering in the same way he posted his argument) Joshbl56 19:09, December 5, 2011 (UTC) :I would not go around making predictions about he future or what Tobi is or is not. Let's let things run their course and see what happens with that. :As for calling this character Tobi, I personally see no problem with that. Even the third databook lists this character under Tobi, despite also covering Madara–Tobi and not just Goofy Tobi. —ShounenSuki (talk | | translations) 19:14, December 5, 2011 (UTC) As Tsunade said ... "Madara" is not just a person, its an ideal. Tobi is as much "Madara" as anyone with the same ideals and plans would be. Meaning of Madara's name is power and fear. The masked man believes he deserves be called "Madara" He said it himself, his name does not matter ... all he cares about is Moon Eye Plan. The masked man will most likely turn out to be person we have heard of before. As soon as the person's identity is revealed, it will be renamed. Calling him Masked Madara or Fake Madara is too much, there's already a disambiguation page for "Madara" And even though Tobi is most likely not the person's name, he used the persona and other than "Madara" its the only name we know of ... We can name him "the man who isn't anyone" though :P --Elveonora (talk) 22:16, December 5, 2011 (UTC) So you people truly believe he's just a fake, eh? That he's posing as Madara to instill fear into his enemies, right? The fact that he possesses the power of the seven tailed beasts and that he's the leader/founder of Akatsuki wasn't a factor in the shitting of pants by the Alliance, correct? Just the name alone was what did it, despite him saying he was a shell of his former self and is powerless from the wound inflicted upon him by Hashirama, right? Give me a break. That speech Tsunade came up with was a bunch of bull to justify the existence of two entities labeled as Madara. Everything this masked man has said, with the exception of lying to Sasuke about the manipulation of the Kyubi sixteen years ago, has been true. So why would he lie about something so miniscule as his name? If he doesn't care who he is, why would he try so hard to be like Madara? Your arguments contradict themselves. The fact he states he is no one just supports my theory. As for the physical features, his hair was practically identical to Madara's when he met Itachi and recruited Kisame. If he was already wearing a mask, why would he care what his hair looked like and try so hard to copy Madara's signature style? Regarding his fashion, the gloves, the fan, and the Uchiha robes are all identical to Madara's. Someone also mentioned before that his eyes were the same distinctive shape as well, which I too see. His mind: his vast knowledge of the Uchiha clan, particularly the details about Izuna that only he or someone very old could know, and of the ninja world in general. Please, with the exception of his original appearance that Edo Madara currently has, enlighten me how this man is not Madara Uchiha. The evidence is overwhelming and people that try to come up with theories based on who he could be are wasting their time as he has already stated on numerous occasions who he is. By the way, Kishimoto just had him tell a woman who was on the brink of existence, Konan, that he was Madara and why he fought Hashirama in the Valley of the End. Well, I've made my point. I didn't make this topic to argue but I severely believe his name should be Madara in one way or another based on the ridiculous amount of similarities he has in common with the character that is known as Madara Uchiha. If not for that, because he is highly recognized as a Madara by a large quantity of characters. --Axel Carnage (talk) 23:07, December 5, 2011 (UTC) :Well, I will agree with you on the point that he should be called Masked Madara in the older story (like when he actually called himself Madara and whatnot). As for calling this page Madara, no, that's ridiculous as it doesn't matter how much he acts like Madara or is recognized as Madara by characters, he has in no way shown us that he is Madara, especially after Edo Madara was revived and his quote about him being no one. Maybe we can put it in his/Edo Madara's trivia about their similarities but that's as far as I see this going until his face is revealed. That's my say. Joshbl56 00:33, December 6, 2011 (UTC) Third Databook lists him under the name Tobi, as well as stating in both his and Madara's articles that he and Madara are one and the same by the way (we'll see if that holds up, though the DBs have never blatantly been misinformative before). Yes, just his name who cause the Allied Forces to, erm, "shit their pants", as he is one of the most powerful ninjas to ever live, so why wouldn't they be freaked? Just with taijutsu he took out significant portions of the fourth division. And what Tsunade said wasn't bull. He didn't say that he wasn't Madara. He just said he didn't care what they called him. However, to get the war started more quickly, he needed the clout that Madara has, which is why he told them that at that time. And yes, I do believe this is in fact Madara. In fact, many of the people that your behaving somewhat rudely to believe that as well. However. there is some evidence against that, namely the fact that Madara has being revived with Edo Tensei. Thus, for the time being, he will be referred to as Tobi and that is not changing until we know for sure. Skitts (talk) 00:55, December 6, 2011 (UTC) I don't believe he is Madara at all, I have my bet but this is not a place to post it in ... check my talkpage if you are interested. I believe the databooks only cover "facts" until the point in manga when something is revealed or new databook comes out. That would be stupid to reveal his identity in databook before the manga shows that out. That would be like revealing a videogame's plot all with ending in it's manual. All he said to Konan is true, but remember ... he actually believes to be Uchiha Madara. Your argument has no value. He is also a good boy, remember ? If you believe that someone of Madara's caliber would act as a goofy child, wear a mask and saying he is no one ... whatever help you sleep at night. Kabuto said he is at Edo Madara's side, so if Edo Madara and Tobi are the same person ... would be funny to plot stuff against yourself. --Elveonora (talk) 02:49, December 6, 2011 (UTC) Shouldn't Sources be listed in all sections? Little confused x) When Tobi moves in on Naruto, was he planning on taking Naruto into his own personal dimension? For a minute I though he was going to extract the Kyuubi but stopped that thought in tracks because he wouldn't be able to do so by himself and with such little time. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 01:31, December 10, 2011 (UTC) :Yeah. he was going to warp him it seems like the logical choice. His tailed beast extraction technique takes some time to set up and I don't think the Rinnegan gives him access to any other tailed beast extraction abilities.--Cerez365™ 01:38, December 10, 2011 (UTC) Thanks Cerez (: Yeah, I thought as much. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 02:12, December 10, 2011 (UTC) Recent edits A user in question, Cerez365 has recently been undoing my edits on Tobi and Madara. The specifics of what I did lies with the false info lingering on Tobi's page from back when he was believed to be Madara. I edited it slightly so that we aren't giving false information that Tobi hates Hashirama because he's "a descendant of the sage of 6 paths' firstborn son". All this belongs on Madara's page.. it's unclear now if Tobi's even an Uchiha, or even human at all.. We need to wait for his identity to be revealed, in the meantime treat him like the mystery he used to be. Anyone undoing my edits is subsequently hiding the fact that most of these revelations about Tobi were lies.. nothing's clear at this point, but tidying up the pages shouldn't be undone so easily.. just saying. --M4ND0N (talk) 00:31, December 13, 2011 (UTC) I should add, however that I got a little annoyed and my post above may come off as rather rude. I think the point I'm trying to make is we should ultimately remove all the stuff from Tobi's page that was added as a result of believing him to be Madara. Now that it's clear he isn't, Tobi's just a mysterious liar.. he has no past that we know of, besides the stuff he did in Konoha and his activity controlling the Mizukage. everything before that belongs in Madara's page. --M4ND0N (talk) 00:40, December 13, 2011 (UTC) Except we don't know for certain whether or not Tobi isn't Madara. There is quite a bit of evidence that he is (more so I'd say than he isn't) Madara. Skitts (talk) 00:43, December 13, 2011 (UTC) :"A user in question" i♥it! Any way, what you are doing is taking things that Tobi has said and either removing it or transferring them to Madara, or even making it unclear with assumptions of "it is unknown if x or y" which I don't think we should do. Simply for the fact that there are so many unknowns surrounding both men that I don't think doing anything like that at the moment would be safe representation of information. We're supposed to represent information as it is given even if Tobi, under what is seemingly the "guise" of Madara Uchiha had said he hated his mother for example. It is still unknown whether or not Tobi is lying because there is information that points in the other direction.--Cerez365™ 00:48, December 13, 2011 (UTC) Chain, eye, or both? When Tobi suppressed the Five-Tails, you can see its eye with a Sharingan, similar to how the Nine-Tails got when it was controlled. Since we don't have much to go on with, I think that we should mentioned that Tobi used both the chains and the Sharingan to suppress the Five-Tails. Does everyone agree? Omnibender - Talk - 13:24, December 14, 2011 (UTC) :Yup.--Cerez365™ 13:25, December 14, 2011 (UTC) Isn't it this as well ? 0_o I sense some shit going on ... --Elveonora (talk) 17:19, December 14, 2011 (UTC) Intangibility and the chain Should it be mentioned somewhere that Tobi was able to become completely intangible while still having his chakra chain active as we've seen him having to stop whatever he is doing to become intangible? Joshbl56 13:39, December 14, 2011 (UTC) If you look on page 7, you see that he creates the chain from chakra emanating from his hand, so I'm not really surprised that he could use that while intangible. Anyway, his hand was already outside of the object he was passing through, so he might have already made that hand tangible since it was out. Skitts (talk) 18:17, December 14, 2011 (UTC) :Tobi can't make pieces of himself tangible and others intangible if I remember correctly it's all or nothing. But I agree that because it's chakra it didn't 'slip' through or something like that.--Cerez365™ 18:26, December 14, 2011 (UTC) CH. 567 In 567, Kakashi and Tobi's interaction indicates that Tobi could use the abilities of the Six Paths of Pain had he had more control over the Tailed Beasts. Would that be enough to consider adding them to his infobox? Skitts (talk) 18:13, December 14, 2011 (UTC) :Actually I think this still falls under he basically hasn't used them. Though we know that he can use them mostly because he possess the Rinnegan. It not that if he had more control over them, it's if the mechanisms of the techniques weren't known to Konoha shinobi.--Cerez365™ 18:26, December 14, 2011 (UTC) Hm, are you sure? In Stream's translation Guy and Kakashi come to the conclusion that it's because Tobi's having to use so much chakra just to control them that he isn't using Pain's abilities. Edit: Oh wait, now I see what you said. Misread it. Skitts (talk) 18:38, December 14, 2011 (UTC) Suppressing Tailed Beast Should it be mentioned somewhere that he's the only character to be able to suppress a tailed beast without the use of Wood Release? I'm asking cause he was still able to suppress the Five-Tails even after his control wavered (although, he did use the sharingan to control it). Joshbl56 01:40, December 17, 2011 (UTC) *cough*. Skitts (talk) 01:46, December 17, 2011 (UTC) No, Tobi did it years earlier with just sharingan, Madara decades before.Umishiru (talk) 01:48, December 17, 2011 (UTC) Well to be fair Skitts, the Uzumaki are descended from the Senju whose blood/legacy I believe is more important than Hashirama's Mokuton by itself. Anyway, Tobi did use his Sharingan to control the beast not the chain that was just to restrain the Gobi.--Cerez365™ 01:50, December 17, 2011 (UTC) I didn't mean just control the tailed beast but completely suppress it, like how Yamato does with this. Joshbl56 01:59, December 17, 2011 (UTC) Well, I was referring more to Kushina than Tobi, whose chakra alone was ideal to suppress the complete Kyubi (though that was post sealing). And like Umishiru said, the Sharingan is another example. Sasuke used it to suppress the Nine-Tails as well, not control it. Skitts (talk) 02:01, December 17, 2011 (UTC) But, he didn't completely suppress it. He just forced it back into Version 2. Which could be him controlling their body with Rinnegan and then subduing them with the Sharingan me thinks. Alsooo! I must stage once more that Sasuke suppressed traces of the Nine-Tails' chakra that had leaked out of the cage, not the beast itself. I'm still not too clear on what you mean about Kushina though.--Cerez365™ 02:38, December 17, 2011 (UTC) :I think he is talking about how her chakra was ideal for suppressing the Nine-Tails. Joshbl56 02:43, December 17, 2011 (UTC)